Talking to Loki
So, you want to work with Loki! Awesome! You’ve invited him to contact you, maybe lit some candles or set out some offerings. Good job! But…how will you know if he responds?
The post we’ve previously linked to in response to this question has since been deleted by the user. Apologies to all those who came to this blog looking for this kind of info and finding only a broken link between now and then. Here’s a quick rundown of some of the options you have concerning communication with the Trickster:
Oracular ability/“Godphone” - Alright, let’s get this one out of the way. Some people have the ability to receive messages from a deity without any special tools or methods. This ability is much rarer, much less clear, and much less pleasant than much of the Tumblr community would lead you to believe. Nor does it always entail “hearing” a deity. Messages can take many different forms that may or may not involve actual language. Sometimes it’s through other senses, like touch or scent. Some people experience it as a “sixth sense” that can’t really be summed up by any of the others. (Dead people might or might not be involved.)
If you have the aptitude, chances are high that you already know it. Using it and keeping track of your results to help with your discernment will strengthen it. If you don’t have a godphone, that does not make you any less of a person or devotee. (My cynical, born-with-a-godphone self would say that those without tend to be more mentally stable and more insightful.) It just means you’ll need to focus on other methods.
Dreams - Yes, just like in legend, deities really can communicate through dreams. But before diving into the nearest dream dictionary, remember that not all dreams are divine messages, and the symbols in dreams are often very personal to the dreamer. If you think you’re getting dream communications, it’s probably a good idea to start a dream diary to record them and see how and if they end up connecting to events in your life. You can find some dream interpretation resources here.
Omens - No, we’re not talking about demon children here. Omens are unusual occurrences through which deities can speak. Emphasis should be placed on “unusual” here. Seeing a crow on your lawn in the suburbs is almost certainly not an omen; it’s just a crow hanging out on your lawn. Seeing crows everywhere you go all day in places you don’t normally see crows and having your best friend give you a crow necklace for no reason might be. As humans, we all have a tendency to find meaning that isn’t necessarily there, so try not to read too deeply into things that aren’t actually out of the ordinary.
If you do run into something you feel has symbolic significance but have no idea what it symbolizes, then do a little research. Looking up “crow symbolism” or “crows in religion” would be a good place to start in our hypothetical crow example. It might also help to think about any role crows have played in your life in the past and what connection that might have with the present.
Divination - All of the above methods, while potentially effective, are things mostly beyond your control. If you want to take communication into your own hands, there’s divination. There are a ton of different methods from cultures all over the world, so my recommendation is to try a bunch and see what works best for you.
Some of the more popular methods in the occult community today are probably tarot cards and runes. They can be powerful tools, but they also require a lot of study and practice to use with full effectiveness. Things like tea leaves, bibliomancy (finding random passages in a book), or pendulums can be quicker options that rely more on personal intuition. I even follow a couple Tumblr users who get results by reading the combinations of posts on their dashboards. If you’ve never done any sort of divination before, we have a little bit about it in our resources section.
In practice, most people use a mix of these methods. Even those with godphones often use divination or look for omens to confirm what they’ve heard, especially when it’s an important matter or seems a bit out of character. And of course, you can always use multiple types of divination. Just be careful of trying again and again until you interpret the message you want to hear rather than focusing on the message that’s being sent.
No matter what methods you use, remember, Loki is a trickster, and a very cunning one. I’ve never had him lie to me, per se, but he seems to delight in allowing people to be mislead by their false assumptions. (See Loki’s bet with the dwarves in the Skáldskaparmál.) He usually does this as much to teach you a valuable lesson as for his own amusement, but taking any communication you get from him at face value could have some…interesting consequences. Discernment is extremely important when dealing with any deity, and that’s doubly true with Loki.
Also be wary of individuals who claim to have a message for you from a deity. All too often, it’s just someone trying to manipulate you. Take anything you hear with a grain of salt and confirm it using your own methods before considering acting on it. Get a blind reading from a third party if it’s important and you’re worried about being objective.
While no method is 100% reliable, the only way to open that line of communication and become more accurate is to practice. Everyone, even people who have been doing this stuff for years, messes up and misinterprets things sometimes, so don’t get discouraged if it seems like nothing is working. Just keep practicing and experimenting with different methods, and avoid placing bets against dwarven smiths.
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The God of Mischief
Most of you reading this will already have an idea as to who this is due to Marvel and tumblr. Some of you may even be big fans, but lets get a few differences out of the way. (I promise to explain terminology that will be used, don’t you fret.)
Things that Marvel got correct
- Depicted as a Male (for the most part)
- He’s a Jotunn (Giant)
- Is related to Thor, Odin, Frigga, etc.
- Resides in Asgard
- Heavy use of Magic
- Originally from Jotunheim
- Laufey is one of Loki’s parents
Things Marvel didn’t get correct
- Not an Ice jotunn. (He’s actually a fire jotunn)
- Not related to Thor and the gang by blood. (only Odin, but by a blood oath, and they’re considered brothers by said oath)
- He doesn’t have blue skin. In fact, jotnar are considered extremely beautiful.
- Laufey is Loki’s mom, not his
So what is Loki exactly?
He’s a jotunn, specifically a fire jotun. It’s safe to assume he was born male, but if you didn’t already know, Loki is a natural shapeshifter. That being said, he isn’t restricted by gender, and is commonly viewed as androgynous.Also, He’s a sorcerer, duh. Let the imagination flow with that one.
Alright, so WHO is Loki?
Loki is the Trickster God of the Norse people. (Think vikings.) He’s mischievous, crafty, stubborn, and willing to do not-so-honorable-things for Asgard. In the Eddas, Loki is first introduced when Odin meets him on one of his travels, and suddenly takes a liking towards Loki. The Blood Oath takes places, and (warning, may be graphic to some readers) they cut their forearms, grasped each other where they were bleeding, a few words are shared, and then they had to save each other’s life. Boom, kinsman.
Throughout the Eddas (by the way, the Eddas are sort of but not really like the christian Bible, to give a comparison that you might understand) Loki does a lot of crap that gets him and others in trouble, but he tends to always be the one to dig himself and everyone else out of the situation.
In the end, during the Lokasenna, its all about Loki and how he finally did himself in with the other Gods. Long story short, (hate to ruin the ending, also hate to remind fellow Lokeans of the ending) Loki is tied to a rock with the intestines of his youngest son Narvi as the binds. He then has a snake the drips poison onto his face, and his faithful wife Sigyn remains by his side to catch the drops in her bowl. When she turns to empty it, when the drops land on his face, that’s supposedly why earthquakes occur. Pretty grim.
Wait, Loki has a family?
You better believe it. In fact, his family is huge. His first family (i.e. mom, dad, etc) consisted of his parents and two other brothers. Little is known of them other than their names. His mother’s name is Laufey, his father is named Farbauti, and his brothers are Byleister and Helblindi.
Loki technically has two wives. However, while Sigyn is Loki’s wife, Loki is the consort and mate of Angrboda, also known as the Hag of the Ironwood. Angrboda is the Chieftain of the Wolf Clan that reside in the Ironwood, located in Jotunheim. She is also a shapeshifter and a jotunn. Angrboda bore Loki three children; Fenrir the dread wolf, Jormungandr the Midgard Serpent, and Hel the goddes of Death. These are by far the most popular of Loki’s children, but they aren’t the only children Loki had. Sigyn gave birth to Vali and Narvi, who would meet tragic fates in the Lokasenna.
It was prophesied to Odin by the Nornir (three women who told the future) that these children would bring about Ragnarok (norse apocalypse), and that Fenrir himself would kill Odin. To try and prevent this, Loki’s children borne of Angrboda were taken from him and Angrboda, and separated. Hel was sent to the realm of the dead, and it was eventually named after her; Helheim. Fenrir was raised in Asgard, and it was only the god Tyr that would feed Fenrir. Odin cast Jormungandr to Midgard to encircle it, and to never let go of it’s tail that surrounds the earth.
In the Lokasenna, the Gods turn Vali into a wolf to kill Narvi, and you know the rest of the story.
However, have you ever heard of Sleipnir? Odin’s eight legged horse? Guess whose kid that is? Yep, Loki’s. Its a long story, but the key thing to remember with this part of it is that Loki is the mother of Sleipnir, not the father. He gave birth to Sleipnir in the form of a horse. Let that one sink in.
So that’s Loki’s family. Its a very tragic tale.
What’s Loki a Patron God of?
While everyone is welcome to their own UPGs (Universal personal gnosis), I will only list SPGs (shared personal gnosis (the group version of a UPG)) shared among those that worship Loki primarily.
- Androgynous/ non-binary
- Owning up to your shit
- Getting through tight situations
- being in that “grey” area in between black and white situations
That’s entirely up to you. However, some SPGs can be provided.
- Animals: Foxes, snakes, wolves, ravens, flies, horses
- Colors: red, orange, black, green
- Symbols: no official ones, but many would agree that Urnes Snakes is suitable
- It’s a common SPG that Loki has red hair.
- Loki, even though already considered beautiful due to being a jotunn, is considered even more beautiful.
- Loki and Thor dressed as women and went to Thor’s “Wedding” in Jotunheim to retrieve Mjolnir, Thor’s Hammer.
- One of Skadi’s demands of Odin was to make her laugh, and Loki tied a rope between his testicles and that of a goats and they pulled against each other until Loki collapsed in Skadi’s lap, making her laugh.
- Loki was the only one able to steal apples out of Idunn’s Orchard (Idunn’s apples are what keep the Gods youthful).
- Loki is known for calling people out on their shit
- Followers of Loki who worship him primarily or his family are known as Lokeans.
- Loki cut the hair off of Sif, Thor’s wife, and Thor made Loki make her new hair, which was made out of Gold. (Sound familiar? Rumpelstiltskin?)
Examples of some Loki-Centered Art
Pants 09 by tkpants
God of Deception by anndr
~ Post by Madison ;)
- Gta 5 secret areas
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- Cheap wall stickers quotes
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The Golden Age by Yoann Lossel
A couple of days ago I attended a talk given by someone in their 20s, about “Trickster Gods”. I put that title in inverted commas not to indicate it is a title, but to indicate it failed to live up to my expectations. I might have expected mention of Hermes, Anansi, Brer Rabbit, Odysseus, Gywdion, Lugh, Maui, Eshu/Legba, or Krishna.
Instead we had a heavy dose of stuff copied from the internet, plus multiple mentions of Loki and passing reference to Coyote and Raven. Not at all what I’d hoped for, as I’d come to learn (or so I hoped) from a fellow practitioner.
A friend said after the talk “I doubt she’s ever met Loki. I doubt she’d interest him.” To which I could only respond “Oh, she might. But not for the reasons she thinks.” And not at all the sort of interest anyone in their right minds would want.
If that sounds smug – believe me, it isn’t. I’ve worked with Loki for over a decade. I pay his tax, as I call it. I know he always wants his fun.
I can’t make a journey without something unexpected or downright weird happening. I can’t depend I will get anywhere on time – or even arrive. The same thing happens with technology or countless other things that interest him. It’s not as though I don’t deliver. I spend my life writing fantasy thrillers in which he’s the main character. I offer him expensive booze far too often. I’m always talking about him. In fact, you might think he owns me… but he doesn’t. And in return, he plays his tricks. They’re part and parcel of the relationship. First it’s the charm; then the seduction; then the tricks. And if I’m not willing to accept that, it’s better to call it a day and find someone else to work with.
And if all that sounds as though working magic with him is a dicey business… oh yes. But when he agrees to take an interest in a working, he delivers. In spades. It’s just that it might not be exactly in the way you thought of.
Now that speaker got one thing right. She said that trickster gods are dangerous. She even had a scary font to emphasise the point. But then she went and ruined it all by saying it was great to call on them to help with a working because their energy was powerful. And you could offset the danger by calling on another, safer, god, to provide balance.
Yeah. Right. Like gods are there at the click of human fingers just lining up to do whatever the human wants, at their command, with nothing in return.
It isn’t just trickster gods who are dangerous. ALL gods are dangerous. No, they don’t need us to “wake them up” as the speaker had it. They don’t need us at all. For some unknown reason, some of them want to interact with us. Some even wish to be generous and benign. Others are strict. And some… well… I wouldn’t want a relationship on any terms with some.
So let’s get this right. If we ask (ASK, not demand or summon) a god to help us, and we know they have a certain reputation, then we should damn well realise that it’s highly unlikely we’re going to be able to limit them taking what they want. Or, if we do try to curb their fun too much, then there’s no point trying to convince yourself they are helping you work any magic. Because they won’t.
One may as well believe that the fay are tiny, attractive adolescent females with butterfly wings. Yeah. Take a look at Yoann’s picture at the top of the page. He’s got it right.
You want to know what working with Loki is like? It’s like the time I found myself walking the edge of a volcano, listening to the seductive voice tempting me to jump right in “The spell will work better that way.”
Well you can. And I’ve no doubt it will. But he won’t respect you for it. If you even recognise what “you” is any more. Because it won’t be the same “you”. And, incidentally, the spell worked just fine without doing that. Lightening fast and effective beyond my imagining.
Or then the was the time I helped out a friend by clearing their house (at their request) of bad stuff. I was left unable to move for hours. And the friend’s marriage broke up within 2 weeks. It happened that the friend is very happy. I’m not so sure about his ex-wife, though.
And then there was the time I was asked to help a friend clear other bad stuff from their house. Oh yes. After three years of not being able to do it herself, that worked. But he had a whale of a time with that one. All sorts of supernatural shenanigans, including the ghost of a wolfhound. Well, we should have seen that one coming. 😉
That’s all Folks!
How does one get around contacting Loki. I've read something about preparing some offerings and things alike. How was your first experience with him?
Hy anon! That’s a realy good but also broad question so prepare for a long post :]
First of all, there are no ‘rules’ for contacting Loki. Or at least none that I know of. Since there is not really any surviving text that could give us instructions on how to pray (correct me if I’m wrong). Everyone’s experiences with contacting Him or other deities are different. You don’t have to offer something beforehand, but if you want to do that, than that’s totally fine. If you want to know how to perform a blót rite, here’s a really informational post about it by @grumpylokeanelder. (I’d recommend this blog in general. You can find alot of useful information on there)
Some people use their ‘godphone’ to contact Loki or other deities. I don’t know a lot about this, because I don’t usually use that term, but here’s another great post about it.
Now we’ve got the boring part out of the way, let’s talk about my experience(s) with contacting Loki (or the gods in general). I’ll start with my first experience concering him.
I think I’ve talked about this before but I’m not sure. Anyway, to keep it short. It was a sweaty, summer night. I couldn’t sleep, because I couldn’t stop thinking about everything that happened that day (I think I got in a fight with my so called ‘best friend’ at the time). I was raised a christian, but I didn’t go to church and everytime I tried to pray it felt pretty useless and quiet, so I considered myself an atheist. Anyway, I couldn’t sleep so I thought ‘f*ck it, let’s just pray to some god’. That some god turned out to be Loki. I didn’t know much about him, but it just felt right (??) So I prayed.
I called on him. I told him about my problems. I tried to be truthful to him and to myself and for the first time in my life, it felt like someone was actually listening. This might sound weird, but it felt like He was in the room with me, sitting on the edge of my bed, just… listening. Before I could even finish my prayer I felt a feeling of relief wash over me. A feeling of warmth, relaxation, a feeling of pure bliss; it was intoxicating. I could barely finish my prayer before I fell into a deep sleep. That was my first experience with Loki, but most of my experiences with him aren’t this ‘vivid’.
After that night I tried to read up on some mythology. I’ve read the edda’s during my summer vacation and I still buy different translations to this day. I worship more gods than just Loki, but you don’t have to. You don’t have to work with a god if it doesn’t feel right. I started worshipping freya, freyr, and Thor during my summer vacation, because I needed them at that time, but keep in mind that sometimes a relationship with a god comes and goes. I’m not that close with freya now as I was a year back and that’s okay.
I don’t pray to every god the same way. When I pray to Loki it feels like he is in the room with me. Sometimes I can feel his touch, sometimes I can hear him in my thoughts, sometimes it’s quiet on the other end and that’s okay too. With the other gods I’m more “formal”.
I start out on my bed, (try to pray in a quiet place where you won’t be interrupted). I usually sit crossed legged, but you can sit in any position that feels comfortable; you can fold your hands and close your eyes if that feels right. After that I just sit quietly, trying not to focus on any thoughts, just relax. Some call it meditation, but that might sounds intimidating to others. Whenever I’m ready, this may take 10 seconds but it may also take up to 10 minutes, I start my prayer. I kind of visualise the gods sitting in front of me. I usually start with a general prayer to all of them at once. It kind of feels like writing a letter. After that I kind of tap into/ zoom in on a specific god. Now this part feels different with every god. Some gods I can kind of see in my mind and/ or their surroundings, some gods I can’t. Some gods feel like they’re in the room with me and with some gods I feel like I’m wherever they are. Sometimes I can feel their touch, like with loki, while others might feel really far away. Usually, the closer my relationship with that god, the more vivid I can feel/sense them.
I don’t know if this information helped you at all, it’s kind of vague. The thing is, everyone experiences the gods differently. Your experiences with Loki might be really different from mine. Just try out whatever feels right.
Now you might ask yourself, how do you know if Loki tries to contact you. That’s a thing too. This is also different for everyone. Like I said, I can usually feel His touch and hear Him in my mind. It just sounds like my normal thoughts, but different. It’s hard to explain. I also think that the gods can contact people via dreams. I’m a very vivid dreamer and I find it easy to remember my dreams, but that might not be the case for everyone. For me it’s easy to see the difference between a normal dream and an Important Dream. The Important Dreams usually feel more coherent. They actually have a story line and it feels like it’s trying to tell me something. You can start a dream journal if you like.
Now something about offerings. That’s simple for me. I don’t follow any official ritual. I just pray and kind of tell Them that I want to offer something to them. After that I usually leave the Thing on my altar for some time depending on what it is. I also don’t eat the food I offer, but you can totally eat your offerings after if you want. It’s entirely up to you. You can make it as simple or complicated as you like.
I feel like this post is one massive train wreck. It’s really all over the place and I’m sorry for that. I hope this is all you wanted to know. If not, feel free to dm me. Also feel free to tell me about your experiences with Loki (or other deities).
ps. My experiences might not match yours in the slightest. This is just my experiences and please don’t follow them as instructions, but rather see them as a guideline for if you don’t know where to start. This might not work for you and that’s fine too. Just try out whatever feels right.
Loki how to contact
(February 19 - March 20)
As you seek and gain clarity, interactions with others bring you energy and make you feel rejuvenated. You feel relaxed and ready to enjoy the company of friends, old and new.You are more intuitive and even psychic right now. You are inclined to daydream and to make wishes. You might enjoy some kind of reward for your past efforts. You might take a trip down memory lane--a pleasant, and perhaps wistful, one!
(May 21 - June 20)
Your diplomacy at work has paid off. Your hard work has been noticed and rewards will soon be yours. Enjoy the raise or change in rank but be sure to invest all new earnings wisely. Your intellect and creativity are appreciated by those in charge. Bask in the glow of some hard earned praise. Bonds and partnerships of all kinds are once again in focus and may develop even further. They may even be legal ones, requiring the signing of documents and papers. Your gains and progress now take a different direction. You may not be able to realize it right away, but with time and new developments in your life, you'll appreciate it.
(September 23 - October 22)
You may find yourself drawn into disputes or competition at the moment. Attempt to your health and financial matters that require your concern. Take care on the road to avoid injury. Now is a good moment to embark on some new training. The effort will prove profitable in the long-term. Now is the time to reconcile longstanding internal conflicts. Success requires both commitment to family as well as for personal growth. Care for loved ones as well as for yourself. Domestic, especially parental, concerns will draw your attention. Confront the situation on its own terms. You know it has to be done but also find time to rest and recuperate.
(April 20 - May 20)
Networking is a wise strategy at the moment. Just make sure you can tell who is a friend and who is an enemy. Good fortune will soon resolve the worries that are bothering you. An elder sibling or an uncle may need your help in a legal or a contractual matter. Your personal equation with your work will undergo a transformation and could lead to prosperity and growth. The people surrounding you will be allies in travel or adventure. Overseas connections could materialize. Expect an emotional connections with cousins or in-laws, if you are married. Successful people radiate self-esteem, not self-disgust.
(November 22 - December 21)
Domestic affairs are on your mind right now. A relationship, perhaps with a parent, requires your time and attention. Some of your plans may need to be put on hold for the present. Find stress relief in leisure activities. Your company is appreciated and desired by many. Now is the time to rethink your priorities. You are focused on your achievements at work as well as spending quality time with loved ones. Investments and bets may be fruitful soon. Resist the urge to go buy the latest gadget. Instead, repay any debts and focus on financial freedom.
(December 22 - January 19)
Work is fulfilling right now, as your talents are in demand and rewards. Newfound monetary gains may need to be applied to repairs or renovations at home. You may feel asked to undertake tasks that feel challenging and unfamiliar. Face them with courage and you will succeed. Nothing feels impossible today. You're full of zeal and inspiration. You're eager to learn a new skill or acquire fresh expertise. Effective communication is of paramount importance today. Remain confident and driven and you are sure to make progress. All things are possible as long as you believe it them.
(October 23 - November 21)
Your spiritual quest may take a new direction right now. Use your innate creativity to express your new insights. Interactions with relatives may require some diplomacy. You may be feeling disconnected from others at the moment but this time of seclusion and introspection will be a healing opportunity for you. People enjoy being near you. You have a way with words that others appreciate. You may participate in a ceremony or journey, for work or pleasure, Your problem solving skills will make you stand out at home or at work. You're sympathetic to other's feelings of others and are ready to share you own. Good deeds always yield magnificent results.
(January 20 - February 18)
An issue with a father or boss figure may put travel plans on the back burner. Support friends and neighbors. They may need your assistance right now. Enrolling in a class or training may result in interesting possibilities for your career. Take time to turn inward and reflect on your identity and your life. You may feel acutely aware of the injustices of life and society, wanting to help those in need in any way you can. Be compassionate but not irresponsible about money matters. Hold off on making major decisions. Spend time planning and scheduling things that will interest you in days ahead.
(August 23 - September 22)
Good judgment comes from experience, and often experience comes from bad judgment. A big purchase requires your attention. Share your thoughts with others and listen to the advice given by loved ones. This is an auspicious moment for a business deal. You have a sense of purpose today and find satisfaction in your involvement with others, especially the opposite sex. People, not finances, attract you right now, stimulating your imagination. Take a break for tedious work to engage in a game or hobby. Please your significant other today and make their day with love and passion.
(June 21 - July 22)
It may be time for you to travel away from home, perhaps even on a long journey. A parent or parental figure may join you. Enjoy the opportunity to expand your horizons and learn something new. Look to connect with your faith right now. Your workload is now reduced, allowing you much needed time with loved ones. Stimulating company heals old wounds and offers wise counsel. Those you haven't seen in a long time may offer an olive branch. Make sure your relationships are marked by a healthy give and take, that you offer as well as receive.
(July 23 - August 22)
Health has been on your mind. Address any concerns you have and your nerves will be set at ease. A lottery, a surprise or other unexpected sources of gifts may come your way. Avoid using funds on dangerous recreational activities. Indulging in vice or unwise relationships now will only lead to later humiliation. Take care of your body and spirit to ensure future wellness. You don't hesitate to do your best and you deliver spectacular results. Today you radiate insight in your exchanges with others. This adds depth to all you say and do. You're focused and seek to finish projects. Give up on ego and accept others today; they are crucial to your success.You may feel slightly out of step or out of synch, which could make you edgy. There could be a noticeable discrepancy between the demands of your personal life and what is expected of you at work. Minor problems in relationships are more than likely. Arriving at decisions is harder now because you feel torn between choices.
(March 21 - April 19)
You may feel apart from others right now, as you may be struggling with a loss of some kind. Attention to your health may be required. Spend wisely right now, being careful to avoid fraudulent and unwise promises. Your dreams may offer promising visions. It might be worth writing them down. This is a time of progress and recognition. Interviews and meetings will demonstrate your poise, confidence and clarity of thought. You see complexities in appropriate detail and are able to make competent decisions. It's a great day to surprise yourself. Your own attitude will ensure your success.Doing something rash is quite possible now, but it's not always a bad thing. May be that gives you just the right kick in the pants to push you out of a bad situation, for example. Still, it would be wise to use some caution, and don't push yourself too hard. Over-reacting to a situation could tick others off, although you don't much care at this time!
CURRENT MOON PHASE
Pants blonde and so decently enough were tucked into her vagina. My penis stood as if for the first time fell into the hands of a virgin whom you wanted to fuck for. Several years, and who in the near future will definitely send it to her mouth. Fingers slipped out of her hole.
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In general, we will have a "cunt with home delivery" service, something like whores on the road. How are you in general ready for this kind of work. Yes, I don't care as long as it was paid. Great, except that the girls will have to be able to protect themselves, otherwise the client now comes across a violent one. And I see you are a short sprout, and your physique is so-so.